Write about one idea that someone brought up that stuck with you. Did someone change your thinking? Did someone bring up an idea that never occured to you?
Feel free to comment on the ideas other students mention as well.
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The seminar changed my ideas about Nurse Ratchet. Throughout the novel the nurse is displayed as power hungry and condescending, such as when she relates her reasoning of why the men cannot watch the baseball game to majority vote, and when she talks down to Billy and says she will tell his mother about Candy. During the seminar someone brought up the idea that Nurse Ratchet might not be all that evil, but instead is “doing her job”. Since the men are in an institution, it is the nurse’s job to keep them in line when they are out of control. I think both of these scenarios are true – the nurse does have a power struggle with McMurphy, but she is also doing her job as a nurse at the same time by trying to keep him in line.
ReplyDeleteTo go along with Lanie's point about Nurse Ratchet, I always thought she was more of the antagonist in the story, but now I see her slightly differently. She was, after all, running a hospital ward for the mentally insane, and she did have to keep a strict facade all the time, or else the patients would take too much advantage of her and cause the ward to fall apart. Her job requirement was to maintain order and stay in charge over her ward, so nothing crazy would happen. I still see her many flaws in the story, but now I see her slightly differently.
ReplyDeleteDuring the seminar when we were discussing how McMurphy symbolizes Christ and possibly how Bromden symbolizes God, someone tied it into the question about McMurphy's existence. I thought it was interesting when they said that if Bromden symbolized God, then that could mean that he had "created" McMurphy. Although I dont know if I fully agree with this, it shows that Bromden probably altered McMurphy's character in his head because he idolized him. Bromden didn't seem to see McMurphy's flaws. This point was something that I hadn't thought of before the seminar.
ReplyDeleteSomeone brought up that they didn't think the characters were so called "insane" but rather just different than the combine. "Would you call Harding "insane" for being gay?" Sam asked, and that really got me thinking. Because the narrator is Bromden and seems to biased, no one can tell for sure if the men are really crazy or if they are just isolated because of their differences, but there are many instances where their sanity is proven very stable.
ReplyDeleteI had asked a question during the seminar about the relation between the christ and machine symbolisms. Someone said that christ was once a part of society and therefore had a connection with the overall machine-society theme. McMurphy, acting as a christ figure, was also a hero in the ward society. He was part of the machine, as christ was once a hero in a machine-like society too. I found this idea interesting.
ReplyDeleteNot to repeat what Erin said, but the idea that McMurphy was created by Bromden/God was really interesting, even the idea that McMurphy didn't exist was thought provoking. I hadn't thought of Bromden as a powerful character in the story really, more of an affected thing than the person creating the change, but the idea of him being God definitely seemed to have its merits.
ReplyDeleteI also found the point about the Nurse "just doing her job" interesting. I think that in the beginning of the novel, this is true. She's running the hospital and keeping the patients in line the best way she can. Once McMurphy enters the ward, I think the Nurse feels that she has to struggle to regain the power she is slowly losing, but I don't think she becomes really evil until maybe the end of the book. When she becomes power-hungry, she uses fear and humiliation to the extreme in order to attempt to exert her power over the patients once again.
ReplyDeleteThe whole "nurse" talk was very biased, pointless and repetitive. Although you are an incredible good moderator Mrs. Ware, you have to cut people off who senselessly repeat what the previously orator said. In conclusion i think we should have a debate next time, i think that would be fun.
ReplyDeleteP.S
Vous me blaguez
I thought that the idea of bias was an interesting point. Maybe Bromden did overlook some of McMurphy's flaws in the story. I am however glad that there was bias in the story because if this story didn't have any bias it wouldn't be interesting. This made me think about how the book would have been different if it had been told from the nurse's prospective. I also thought that the idea that the nurse was just doing her job was interesting. I disagreed with it, and it got a little repetitive in the seminar, but it had me thinking after the seminar was over.
ReplyDeleteDuring the seminar, we discussed the advantages and disadvantages of Bromden being the narrator of the story. It is self explanatory that a disadvantage is that Bromden is "mentally ill", but I never thought about how his thoughts were biased against the nurse because he is one of the patients. This changed my views on many things. Also, I concure with Erin about Bromden "creating God". I hope i used the word concure correctly.
ReplyDeleteLike a couple others, I really thought Maddie's suggestion of Bromden representing God very interesting and it made a lot of sense, especially the whole "God created Jesus, so did Bromden create McMurphy?" aspect of it.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have to agree with Ethan in the sense that there was a lot of biased and repetitive talk on the subject of what she was doing and trying to justify it. I like his debate idea as well.
I had never really thought about the patients state of mentality as a factor in the story. I knew some were crazy, but the seminar made me consider how they were forced into their own little combine, away from the outside world. That really helped to link it all back to society being a machine, and the machine spitting out things that were just slightly off, like Harding being gay.
ReplyDeleteAlthough many have already said it, I found that the whole idea of Bromden being God and creating McMurphy was very interesting. It hadn't occurred to me while reading that either of these characters could portray such holy figures. Bromden doesn't seem to be the most influential character, but I see now how his actions and thoughts could be seen as godlike.
ReplyDeleteI had never thought about the idea of Bromden just having McMurphy as a figment of his imagination. But then someone, I do not know who, said that Bromden would not have vested so much time and effort creating a character with so many flaws. I thought this was a very good point.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of the nurse's side of the story interested me. I never thought about her just doing her job. It made think how the society of that time frame affected her.
ReplyDeleteThe seminar made me change my views a little about Nurse Ratched. During the whole novel, I thought Nurse Ratched was all bad, but during the seminar I started to identify with her point of view a little more. Also, the whole idea about Bromden being God and creating McMurphy really stuck with me because it changed everything i thought about the book.
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ReplyDeleteSome students brought up the point that Nuse Ratchet's actions throughout the novel were not only justified, but also meant for the wellbeing of all her patients. Bromdon's point of view as a patient is skewed because he could only have feelings of negativity towards Big nurse. While I do agree that Mrs. Ratchets actions were meant to give order in the ward, which was necesary, I still believe that she is a bitter women seeking a conformed society. I think Nurse Ratchet wanted rebellious individuals to change there ways. The fact that she used labotomies, shock therapy and humiliation to accomplish these goals proves she has evil aspects of her personality.
ReplyDeleteLike many others, the idea that Nurse Ratchet was doing everything to the patients for the better gave me differnt opinions. Unfortunately, because i really liked Billy Bibbit, I now sortof view him as pathetic. When the nurse brought up his mother, she was only being realistic. In society you have no choice but to face things you are afraid of, especially your actions and parent's reactions. If Billy couldn't handle that without killing himself, then how the heck would he have been ready for society? He wouldnt.
ReplyDeleteI think that Billy killed himself because he saw no way to escape the consequences that were to come. The Nurse knows all of the weaknesses in each of her patients. For Billy, this was his mother and the shame she would have if she knew what Billy did. When she mentioned telling Billy's mother , she know that she would hit him where it hurts. On both sides they acted out of cowardice and desparation. The Nurse was trying to make a last stand to assert her power over the patients. As for Billy, he was trying to escape the place that he had been trapped in and hide away from his problems.
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